"Ah yes, the organic farmers who use organic fertilizer- yes, the major disadvantage of organic fertilizer is pathogens, and how they handle it. They do not use raw cow dung in large commercially available farms- but somehow we lost the point here."


"E. Coli does live in soil, and when some people eat vegetables the E. Coli is not on the outside of the plant but goes into the plant."

Whether it's in the plant or outside the plant, it did not come from the soil. That is flat out wrong. Anyone can go to the CDC website and see that is wrong. This is what the CDC has to say about how fruits and vegetables are contaminated. "...fresh fruits and vegetables can be contaminated if they are washed or irrigated with water that is contaminated with animal manure or human sewage." And, "Fruits and vegetables that grow close to the ground are susceptible to E. coli contamination if, for example, improperly composted cattle manure is used as a fertilizer." Cattle manure is used in agriculture, it does exist, and it does contaminate the plants. Inside or outside the plant is irrelevant.

If you are wrong about this (and you are) and unwilling to admit it. What else are you wrong about and refuse to admit? Your bias is in the extreme if you can't admit that animal agriculture spreads pathogens and plant agriculture does not when done without the use of manures. I have to believe that you couldn't possibly look at a study without your bias effecting your analysis.

Pathogens from animals on fruits and vegetables can be avoided if we go plant-based (no animal by-products) with agriculture, which I'm a huge advocate for. Adopting a vegan diet will not (and lets be clear, I never said it did) save you from those pathogens unless changes are made in agriculture.

"And, no it does not mean “cow dung infested soil.”

Yes it does. And the CDC agrees with me.

"Suffice to say- yes, food borne illness is an issue- with plants and with meats. You are not going to get away from it by being vegan."

Again, plant-based agriculture is your best alternative. I myself am a veganic gardener who grows my own fruits and vegetables in the spring/summer and early fall. I like to grow what I eat whenever possible. If appropriate changes are made in agriculture, we can avoid a lot of pathogens in our food.

"In terms of vegetarians or vegans dying of cancer- you remind me of the snake handler religions – if you get a snake bite and die then you didn’t have enough faith. If you get cancer as a vegan and die then you were not a vegan enough- sorry- just doesn’t work that way. Further, anecdotes do not prove science – it is wide spread studies of people, and oddly enough there is cancer found in India, there is cancer found in 7th Day Adventists, there is cancer found in China. And when you were doing “research” on the vegans, it is interesting how you know what they ate- since their food records are not readily available -."

I didn't need "records" ,just a basic idea of the vegan diet they were on, raw with lots of nuts and oils etc. Your assessment of the vegan diet and those vegans who died of cancer was anecdotal wasn't it? Also you talk about a vegan with colon cancer who was vegan since he was 14 in the article. How incredibly unscientific is that? Did you get the details of his vegan diet? Maybe he thought vegan meant eggs and milk were ok to eat? Maybe he just didn't eat meat? Many are confused with the definition. Again you are attacking me for something you yourself are guilty of in this article. Why is it ok for you to do it, but not me? By the way where is that study you state proves vegans don't live as long as vegetarians? And didn't you say in a previous article that diet didn't matter and anyone who said their diet made them live longer was wrong? But you are saying that vegetarians live longer than vegans? So which is it? You are contradicting yourself.

"By the way- McDougall has recovered well from his stroke, eh?"

Yes, McDougall had a stroke before he changed his diet. He hasn't had a stroke since. So it looks like his own diet is working for him. And your point was? Maybe you should talk to Atkins and see how his diet is working for him. Oh wait, you can't, he's dead from a heart attack.

"There will always be those who want the magic answer in food.."

I don't think food is the magic answer. But I do think diet is a huge part of preventing disease. Not smoking, exercise, avoiding enviromental factors, alcohol, all important to. There is plenty of science to support the claims people like McDougall and Campbell make. Real science, not woo woo science. More recent discoveries like, the link between nutrients, genes and the spread of cancer: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/08/120827152050.htm#.UDz-NkB5di8.email

"In terms of some of your other claims- clearly you like the likes of McDougall, whose rather long YouTube about Steve Jobs death was filled with too many inaccuracies to count-..."

As many inaccuracies as this article? tehe I am a fan of McDougall and I follow his diet. And I do plan to buy his new book The Starch Sollution. :D

If I remind you of a snake handler, you remind me of a Christian who disregards the science of evolution. You refuse to believe anything bad about meat and dairy. Or that diet has anything to do with cancer.

Lastly, all of your points in this article are mute. Minger's argument against, along with yours, has been pulled apart by Campbell in 2010. http://www.vegsource.com/news/2010/07/china-study-author-colin-campbell-slaps-down-critic-denise-minger.html

Anyway, it's fun to debate it and I appreciate your alternative, often entertaining, view and that's why I come to this website from time to time.